Caer Abred

Ye, and it came to pass, that i have undergone an unverifiable gnostic experience and reverted unto the Woo Woo again. In short, I suddenly find I can believe in a Deity again somewhere deep deep down...... And no, I can't prove there is such...and I suddenly don't need to try anymore. My new found spirituality is still a liberal, nature loving rather fluffy Deism. It might be pointed out by those with long memories that I did have a deistic phase last year but that was more an intellectual wobble. Now its one of those Road-to-Damascus-Seeing-the-Light type of brain storms (or a turning-out-the-light loony tunes interval, depending on your point of view). You see,the heart has reasons when the brain just gives up.

Of course in Mob terms this means I've become a little snivelling turncoat and supergrass.....but I'm on the witness protection program which is why I've come out in the Fluffy Inner Grove at the moment.

In which case I shall offer you a manly hug

And that's why I'm a Holistic Spectrum Mercenary, what if I want to change? What if I'm going through a phase? What if my opinions don't fit comfortably in one mob or another?

I wish you well on your Woo Woo journey.

I've little problem with deism as a concept, but can't really see what difference it makes to things.

I learn't a while ago that rationality is good for most of life's experiences but to place my entire spectrum of experiences at this particular altar is to deny some experiences by trying to force them into a frame of reference that doesn't fit and may actually do more harm than good (least ways for me!). I fear that sometimes we tend to spend too much time trying to justify the means by which we arrive at these experiences with each other, a hangover from the Abrahamic religion's competition for domination, and may miss the point of these experiences, namely paying attention to what is actually being demonstrated to us. If we consider that we are being shown these things for a reason, and have enough confidence in our own reasoning processes to acknowledge that we don't actually, at this time, have all the answers, then it would be sensible, IMO, to pay respect to the origin of these same experiences. How this respect is shown is up to the individual to consider.

RR

Yes to echo CB and also to fly the flag for apatheism, I'd be interested WH if you could offer some indights as to why (or indeed whether) it actually matter at all?

treegod wrote:And that's why I'm a Holistic Spectrum Mercenary, what if I want to change? What if I'm going through a phase? What if my opinions don't fit comfortably in one mob or another?

I wish you well on your Woo Woo journey.

You know, given my history of continually wobbling between belief, agnosticism and non-belief, perhaps I should become a Holistic Spectrum Mercenary too...that is, if you don't mind Treegod?

simonchadwick wrote:Yes to echo CB and also to fly the flag for apatheism, I'd be interested WH if you could offer some indights as to why (or indeed whether) it actually matter at all?

Hmm. I take it that you are asking why would the existence of a deistic god/goddess/Great Spirit (take your pick) of deism matter? Well I won't be saying it should matter to you..but to me it matters for a number of reasons. My account of deism is not quite conventional. I'm rather more accurately a pandeist or pan-en-deist but those terms are even less well known. Look them up on Wikipaedia if you like. For me some aspect of the divine is within creation or creation within the divine. This is my contact point with paganism. My bridge with naturalism is that deism seeks to uphold reason and science. I even believe the results of reason and science are to be preferred as far more reliable than subjective experience (except perhaps to the person who has the UPG), yet - and heres the root point of difference - subjective experience including mystical experiences are potentially imho, also a genuine source of knowledge. Naturally the knowledge gained by these different routes should not be in conflict, and deism is an attempt to reconcile the more apparently supernatural experiences of god/gods with science. The alternative views which suggest they must be antagonist and one preferred over the other are fundamentalism on the oneside and naturalistic atheism on the other.

Babble...babble. anyway, if like me you are blessed (or perhaps cursed) with a mystical frame of mind, then the deistic god is handy explanation and perhaps object-symbol or focus for those mystical inclinations - and by mystical I mean the intuitive sense of some profound unity, pattern or purpose to existence, the sense of the supreme 'Other' or Higher Power(s) or another reality.
I am not committed to insisting that there is only one deity or that it is a bloke or that it is like an individual person in the human sense (I very much doubt it). Transpersonal cosmic consciousness anyone? Maybe the universe evolves into the divine, to become the ultimate self caused cause. I am open to suggestions, but frankly my UPG tells me any divinity is a mystery beyond duality and any human categories, not even a 'being' at all.

Traditionally, we can say that deism has been offered as an explantion of the First Cause that set the initial conditions of the universe.

Its a possible explanation along with the Multi-Verse hypothesis for the extreme fine turning of the Cosmos to enable the existence of stable matter, life and intelligent life anywhere at all, an apparently extremely improbable event

The deistic deity can be understood as the source of the three fundamental mysteries: Being (why is there something rather than nothing) Life (how does it arise from the merely inanimate) and Consciousness (which defies reductionist explanation).

It would be the source of our ideals of Love, Beauty, Justice (why do we have such ideals and values? what is their survival value?)

It might offer an After-Life (though Deists need not believe in one) or at least a collective goal for the Universe (such as the hope of a final evolution of life to higher plane of consciousness or non-finite nature or full incarnation of the divine ideal).

It would mean that the beauty and magnificence of nature, life and consciousness will last forever in some form because they are underpinned or embedded in a higher dimensional reality that is beyond space-time. You see in purely naturalistic terms nature and life on earth is not eternal It will cease to exist sometime in the far distant future, though earth life could disappear much sooner, then what does one do with a nature spiritulity?. A deity offers a kind of guarantee. That is kind of comforting, though not in a personal sugary, comfort blanket sort of way.
Deism is unlikely to start any wars. It does not depend on holy books or ethnically particular prophets. The Deity does not intervene or answer prayers. It need not clash with science. Nature is its revelation and manifestation. My deism believes in reason, but my particular variety of belief also involves subjective illumination and the assumption that every being has a sense of the inner light/divine spark at the core of our natures.

its also the underpinning theology of Iolo's Barddas. Its not very neo-pagan, though its plenty meso-druid and perennial philosophy.

I can guess at least some of the objections. Atheists will point out my view assumes the mystical inclinations are not just neuro-chemical imbalances. It hints that the universe may exist for a reason, implying that more than random chance is at work because of the initial conditions or particular parameters set into the universe. And fundamentally, without the subjective gnostic element, it is 'not proven' objectively speaking. But if it is true, then we each can, in theory, gnostically discover it for ourselves.

White Horse wrote:

treegod wrote:And that's why I'm a Holistic Spectrum Mercenary, what if I want to change? What if I'm going through a phase? What if my opinions don't fit comfortably in one mob or another?

I wish you well on your Woo Woo journey.

You know, given my history of continually wobbling between belief, agnosticism and non-belief, perhaps I should become a Holistic Spectrum Mercenary too...that is, if you don't mind Treegod?

Why ask me? I'm a mercenary, if the money's right...